Wednesday, June 25, 2014

Morning Wink 6-25-14 AM Posts #edchat #edreform


BIG EDUCATION APE - MORNING WINK  AM POSTS




LISTEN TO DIANE RAVITCH 6-25-14 Diane Ravitch's blog | A site to discuss better education for all
Diane Ravitch's blog | A site to discuss better education for all: Peter Greene: Is This the “Stupidest Thing Ever to Come Out of the U.S. DOE?”Peter Greene writes that Arne Duncan has figured out why children with disabilities get lower test scores: Low expectations. Greene writes: “In announcing a new emphasis and “major shift,” the US Department of Education will now demand that states show edu
Survey: U.S. Accountability System Less Fair and Effective Compared to Other Countries | NEA Today
Survey: U.S. Accountability System Less Fair and Effective Compared to Other Countries | NEA Today: Survey: U.S. Accountability System Less Fair and Effective Compared to Other CountriesJune 25, 2014 by twalker  Filed under Featured News, Top StoriesLeave a CommentBy Brenda ÁlvarezEducators who are empowered to take control of their profession tend to yield better results for their practice, stude
6-23-14 Fred Klonsky | Daily posts from a retired public school teacher
Fred Klonsky | Daily posts from a retired public school teacher who is just looking at the data.: Glen Brown. Discover perspicacity.Good afternoon, Glen. I was just reading through your blog and really liked how diverse it is, you seem to be a man of many hats. As a result, I thought I’d reach out to you and ask for a bit of advice regarding a children’s summer education project we’re working on.
6-24-14 Larry Ferlazzo’s Websites of the Day… | …For Teaching ELL, ESL, & EFL
Larry Ferlazzo’s Websites of the Day… | …For Teaching ELL, ESL, & EFL: This Week’s “Round-Up” Of Good Posts & Articles On Education PolicyHere are some recent useful posts and articles on educational policy issues: Aren’t California tenure policies in fact unreasonable? Plus 4 more Vergara questions asked and answered is from The Washington Post. I’m adding it to California Court Rules It’
6-25-14 Answer Sheet
Answer Sheet: The Great Teachers and Principals Act: not so great after allLast year I published a piece by Kenneth Zeichner, a professor who has done extensive research on teaching and teacher education, which discussed legislation in Congress about teacher and principal preparation programs. The legislation is officially called the “Growing Excellent Achievement Training Academies (GREAT) Teache
6-25-14 Schools Matter
Schools Matter: Houston KIPPsters Blow Off Steam by Hanging ClassmateFrom Fox affiliate in Houston:By Alexander Supgul, Digital Content Manager - bioOn May 20 during recess at KIPP Academy, David Rodriguez says he quite nearly strangled to death."I thought I was going to die and I was not going to see my Mom, my Dad and my sister," said Rodriguez.David's mother, Zulma Rodriguez, insists
6-25-14 @ The Chalk Face
@ THE CHALK FACE: @amprog imitates neoliberal wankers and excludes educator voicesA panel on the Common Core today from the Center for (on?) American Progress. See the speakers. Any educators in site? Introductory Remarks: Carmel Martin, Executive Vice President for Policy, Center for American Progress Panelists: Gov. Jim Douglas, Former Governor of Vermont Gov. Ted Strickland, Former Governor of
6-25-14 the becoming radical | A Place for a Pedagogy of Kindness (the public and scholarly writing by P. L. Thomas, Furman University)
the becoming radical | A Place for a Pedagogy of Kindness (the public and scholarly writing by P. L. Thomas, Furman University): Whence Come “The Leftovers”?: Speculative Fiction and the Human ConditionNora Durst finds herself at the intersection of something routinely normal for middle-class Americans living in the comfort of suburbia and distinctly otherworldly at the same time in Tom Perrotta’s
6-25-14 Perdido Street School
Perdido Street School: Rupert Murdoch To Be Interviewed By Scotland Yard In Hacking CaseFrom the Daily News: Scotland Yard detectives plan to interview media mogul Rupert Murdoch about a phone-hacking scandal that led to one of his former top honchos being convicted Tuesday on criminal charges. Detectives have informed the 83-year-old Murdoch he’ll be grilled “under caution” — a warning given to s
Eight teachers, eight struggles with measuring student growth | Education Lab Blog | Seattle Times
Eight teachers, eight struggles with measuring student growth | Education Lab Blog | Seattle Times: Eight teachers, eight struggles with measuring student growthPosted by Linda ShawTake eight certified teachers, all with a prestigious advanced teaching credential, and ask them to tell stories about how they measure student growth in their classrooms— a requirement of the state’s new teacher evalua
Pro-Common Core State School Chief Loses Election in Oklahoma | Truth in American Education
Pro-Common Core State School Chief Loses Election in Oklahoma | Truth in American Education: Pro-Common Core State School Chief Loses Election in OklahomaFiled in Common Core State Standards, Education at State Level by Shane Vander Hart on June 25, 2014 • 0 Comments146241Pro-Common Core Oklahoma State School Superintendent Janet Barresi lost her primary against challenger Joy Hofmeister who ran o
Mike Klonsky's SmallTalk Blog: Chicago school closings went well, except for...
Mike Klonsky's SmallTalk Blog: Chicago school closings went well, except for...: Chicago school closings went well, except for...BEST QUOTE OF THE DAY RE. RAHM... Comes from S-T's Dan Mihalopoulos -- You don’t need to speak español to understand what hipocresía means. Sorry to bust any remaining bubbles out there, but no, closing 50 Chicago Public Schools last year didn't save us any money. Quite
Detroit Free Press Publishes Weeklong, Blockbuster Investigation of Michigan Charters | janresseger
Detroit Free Press Publishes Weeklong, Blockbuster Investigation of Michigan Charters | janresseger: Detroit Free Press Publishes Weeklong, Blockbuster Investigation of Michigan ChartersPosted on June 25, 2014 by janressegerThe huge investigation of Michigan’s charter schools, a series of stories, graphics, and interviews being published this week by the Detroit Free Press, includes a lot more inf
empathyeducates – Editorial: A Complete Education Includes Humanities
empathyeducates – Editorial: A Complete Education Includes Humanities: Editorial: A Complete Education Includes HumanitiesPhotograph; Stan Gutiontov, a student at Northwestern University’s Feinberg/Chicago TribuneBy Times Editorial | Originally Published at Tampa Bay Times. Friday, June 21, 2013 5:30amThe humanities and social sciences have been under attack by Gov. Rick Scott and other politician
Is Money spent on Public #Education Equitable? | Cloaking Inequity
Is Money spent on Public #Education Equitable? | Cloaking Inequity: Is Money spent on Public #Education Equitable?A longstanding issue in school finance research and litigation concerns whether money spent on public education is equitable. Traditionally, researchers examined if money spent on public education was equitable across districts within the same state. Given that public education is part
NYC Educator: Does Killing Tenure Equal a "Sound Education?"
NYC Educator: Does Killing Tenure Equal a "Sound Education?": Does Killing Tenure Equal a "Sound Education?"No surprise!  Campbell Brown has recruited and sponsored six NY students to legally challenge tenure and seniority laws on the basis that they violate the Constitutional right of children to a "sound education" by protecting ineffective teachers.   Doubtless, Br
Kindergarten and Technology (Sharon Davison) | Larry Cuban on School Reform and Classroom Practice
Kindergarten and Technology (Sharon Davison) | Larry Cuban on School Reform and Classroom Practice: Kindergarten and Technology (Sharon Davison)This post comes from kindergarten teacher Sharon Davison. It was posted on June 17, 2014. I have taken  her self-description from “About” on her blog.My name is Sharon Davison and I have the pleasure of being a Kindergarten teacher in Vermont. I have been

YESTERDAY

Starting with Relationships, Focus on Learning | Connected Principals
Starting with Relationships, Focus on Learning | Connected Principals: Starting with Relationships, Focus on Learningby Johnny Bevacqua • June 25, 2014 • 0 CommentsThis was originally posted by J. Bevacqua on Figuring It OutYet another new beginning….For those that have not heard – next school year brings a new and exciting job opportunity – this time as Principal of Vancouver College – a K-12 Cat
You Can't Educate With Us (On Tone-Policing When Silent) - The Jose Vilson
You Can't Educate With Us (On Tone-Policing When Silent) - The Jose Vilson: You Can’t Educate With Us (On Tone-Policing When Silent)by JOSE VILSON on JUNE 24, 2014in JOSEI called someone a racist this past weekend. And a sexist for good measure.I don’t have much authoritative experience with the latter as I do the former, and I don’t go throwing around such a title lightly.I won’t go into the inci
A Principal Ruins a Teacher's Career in Brooklyn - southbronxschool
http://www.southbronxschool.com: A Principal Ruins a Teacher's Career in Brooklyn The following could very well be considered part II of last night's blog postbut it deserves it's own special mention.The Crack Team just got this story of a middle school teacher from Brooklyn. His name is Jeff Storobinsky who suddenlyhad to retire this past February for the abuse to stop.The Crack Team has seen and
All Things Education: A DCPS Teacher Resigns
All Things Education: A DCPS Teacher Resigns: A DCPS Teacher ResignsA few summers ago at the SOS March & National Call to Action, I met a young and enthusiastic, but independent-minded and healthily-skeptical DC Public School elementary teacher, named Olivia Chapman (on twitter: formerly @sedcteacher, now @NGCoachLiv). Olivia has done two guest posts for this blog thus far, one about lessons l
Give it away, give it away, give it away now… | Connected Principals
Give it away, give it away, give it away now… | Connected Principals: Give it away, give it away, give it away now…by Jon Harper • June 24, 2014 • 0 CommentsWhile watching Game of Thrones has provided me with much entertainment over the past few years, it did not teach me a single thing about becoming a better leader. In fact, I learned more about leadership from a five-minute rereading of Shel Si
Nite Cap 6-24-14 #BATsACT #RealEdTalk #EDCHAT #P2
James Baldwin said it best: "For these are all our children, and we will profit by or pay for whatever they become."A BIG EDUCATION APE NITE CAP6-24-14 With A Brooklyn Accent: Love Letters to the BATSWith A Brooklyn Accent: Getting Rid of The Bad Teachers: Discrimination in Berkeley, CA A Guest Post by Masha Albrecht and Brian Crowell Getting Rid of The Bad Teachers: Discrimination in Be
6-24-14 With A Brooklyn Accent: Love Letters to the BATS
With A Brooklyn Accent: Getting Rid of The Bad Teachers: Discrimination in Berkeley, CA A Guest Post by Masha Albrecht and Brian Crowell Getting Rid of The Bad Teachers: Discrimination in Berkeley, CAby Masha Albrecht and Brian CrowellThroughout the country school districts have instituted different methods of weakening teacher tenure. In California, as in some other states this policy is called P
Peg with Pen: Catch. Throw. Watch What Happens.
Peg with Pen: Catch. Throw. Watch What Happens.: Catch. Throw. Watch What Happens.Growing up, one of the phrases in our house was, Don't run around like a chicken with your head cut off. I have to say, I never liked that phrase. A little too visual for me. But it always struck a chord with me due to the picture it created in my head - it  definitely caused me to slow down, take a look around, and
Michelle Gunderson: Teacher Union Conventions to Debate Common Core - Living in Dialogue - Education Week Teacher
Michelle Gunderson: Teacher Union Conventions to Debate Common Core - Living in Dialogue - Education Week Teacher: Michelle Gunderson: Teacher Union Conventions to Debate Common CoreBy Anthony Cody on June 24, 2014 5:34 PMGuest post by Michelle Gunderson.Sitting around the table in our teachers' lunchroom a teacher said to me, "I didn't go into teaching to be political." I find this an a
President of the California School Board Association: Its time to revisit charter school legislation | Larry Miller's Blog: Educate All Students!
President of the California School Board Association: Its time to revisit charter school legislation | Larry Miller's Blog: Educate All Students!: President of the California School Board Association: Its time to revisit charter school legislationFiled under: Charter Schools — millerlf @ 10:24 am President of the California School Board Association (CSBA) Josephine LuceyJune 1, 2014I’ve been extre
6-24-14 Fred All Week Klonsky | Daily posts from a retired public school teacher
Fred Klonsky | Daily posts from a retired public school teacher who is just looking at the data.: Heading for the NEA RA. Thinking back to past ones and the last Obama endorsement.A Thank You at the 2011 NEA Representative Assembly. I fly to Denver on Friday to attend the National Education Association’s Representative Assembly. I’m a an IEA Retired Delegate, elected statewide to represent the sta
Rebel with a Cause | EduShyster
Rebel with a Cause | EduShyster: Rebel with a Cause Barbara Madeloni, newly elected president of the 110,000 member Massachusetts Teachers Association, says that fighting is winning.EduShyster: I’ve heard you described as *bellicose,*  *unapologetically adversarial,* a *firebrand,* and *alarming.* Which of these would you say best describes you?Barbara Madeloni: Aren’t you forgetting *shrill*? One
6-24-14 Ed Notes Online
Ed Notes Online: For Their Eyes Only - UFT Leadership Loves New Tone at Tweed -UFT President Michael Mulgrew took a student awards ceremony Monday as a chance to praise the union’s partnership with the Department of Education. READ MORE -- ChalkbeatOh, the Unity/UFT leadership is qvelling like a pig in shit over the new tone at Tweed. You see, pre-Bloomberg, the UFT was part and parcel of running
Further Investigations of LDOE and John White are Warranted and Long Overdue | Crazy Crawfish's Blog
Further Investigations of LDOE and John White are Warranted and Long Overdue | Crazy Crawfish's Blog: Crazy Crawfish's BlogZesty Louisiana Education PoliticsFurther Investigations of LDOE and John White are Warranted and Long OverduePosted on June 24, 20140Now that some investigations are underway by the Jindal Administration into John White and his Department of Education and how they allocated a
Blame the Brown Guy! | Bill Ayers
Blame the Brown Guy! | Bill Ayers: Blame the Brown Guy!You can always count on the war-mongers: John McCain, who’s been wrong about every foreign policy issue for 50 years, is still wheeled out to offer his sage advice on what the US should do next, and it’s always a variation on a theme, and a badly broken record: Bomb! Bomb! Bomb! Dick Cheney, of course. Lindsey Graham. Henry Kissinger—the bigge
6-24-14 @ The Chalk Face
@ THE CHALK FACE: Will Free-Pass Mainstream Media Clean Up Their Chetty Mess?Will Free-Pass Mainstream Media Clean Up Their Chetty Mess?. via Will Free-Pass Mainstream Media Clean Up Their Chetty Mess?.1 by plthomasedd / 9h hide  //  saveInterview At the Chalk Face: Critical Free PressInterview At the Chalk Face: Critical Free Press. via Interview At the Chalk Face: Critical Free Press.1 by plthom
6-24-14 The Whole Child Blog — ED Pulse Poll Results: How Do You Use Digital Games in Your Classroom?
The Whole Child Blog — Whole Child Education: ED Pulse Poll Results: How Do You Use Digital Games in Your Classroom?ASCD continually seeks to provide solutions to the challenges that face educators of all levels. A recent ASCD SmartBrief ED Pulse poll asked readers what the primary use of digital games is in their classrooms. Several recent articles about the use of gaming in the classroom indicat
6-24-14 the becoming radical | A Place for a Pedagogy of Kindness (the public and scholarly writing by P. L. Thomas, Furman University)
Will Free-Pass Mainstream Media Clean Up Their Chetty Mess? | the becoming radical: Will Free-Pass Mainstream Media Clean Up Their Chetty Mess?The New York Times couldn’t hold back: Big Study Links Good Teachers to Lasting Gain. And for two years now, the so-called Chetty study that claims teacher quality directly causes higher lifetime earnings for their students has been re-released by Chetty an
SI&A Cabinet Report :: Parent involvement may be key to raising student achievement
SI&A Cabinet Report :: The Essential Resource for Superintendents and the Cabinet: Parent involvement may be key to raising student achievement(Md.) More and more, schools are turning to research-based programs to engage parents and guardians in the education of their children -- a strategy that evidence is showing may be a key impact upon a student's academic achievement.by Carrie Marovich / 
What Happens When Parents, Students and Teachers Take a Stand Together? | National Opportunity to Learn Campaign | Education Reform for Equity and Opportunity
What Happens When Parents, Students and Teachers Take a Stand Together? | National Opportunity to Learn Campaign | Education Reform for Equity and Opportunity: What Happens When Parents, Students and Teachers Take a Stand Together?Posted on: Tuesday June 24th, 2014When it comes to creating real change in public schools, the answer isn't to impose top-down reforms. Instead, it comes down to the har
School Funding Declines due to Tax Cutting, Austerity Budgeting, and Paring Down Title I and IDEA | janresseger
School Funding Declines due to Tax Cutting, Austerity Budgeting, and Paring Down Title I and IDEA | janresseger: School Funding Declines due to Tax Cutting, Austerity Budgeting, and Paring Down Title I and IDEAPosted on June 24, 2014 by janressegerA new report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) documents that 35 states continued to spend less in the 2013-2014 school year on the
Allowing the Market, Failing Kids | educarenow
Allowing the Market, Failing Kids | educarenow: Allowing the Market, Failing KidsPosted on June 24, 2014 | Leave a commentThe Detroit Free Press has come out with a scathing indictment of charter school operations in the state of Michigan.  The series reveals the greed and almost total lack of oversight that has allowed charters to churn over $1 billion in public money spent into private profit.  
6-24-14 Curmudgucation
CURMUDGUCATION: GOP and Dems Once Again United by Disdain for TeachersWell, we knew it was coming. We just didn't know it would be quite so bald-faced.As reported by Politico, the coming push to trash teacher job protections will bring together players from both the Obama and Bush administration.Campbell Bown, former journalist and current-- well, I hesitate to call her a teacher-hater, but it's h
6-24-14 Schools Matter
Schools Matter: NJ Legislature Waking Up to Damage of Common Core and High Stakes TestingThis didn't happen by osmosis. It happened because parents, teachers, administrators and citizens in New Jersey have been lobbying their local representatives to end the damage being done to their children by high stakes testing that is abusive and punitive for teachers, schools and communities.The people of N
6-24-14 LA School Report - What's Really Going on Inside LAUSD (Los Angeles Unified School District)
LA School Report - What's Really Going on Inside LAUSD (Los Angeles Unified School District): Calculus camp at LACES drawing in more LAUSD studentsRobert Vriesman The popularity of calculus classes at the Los Angeles Center for Enriched Studies (LACES) has skyrocketed, thanks in large part to a unique calculus camp that combines learning with outdoor fun and adventure. Every year, seniors and juni
NYC Educator: Oopzie! UFT and NYSUT Goof Again
NYC Educator: Oopzie! UFT and NYSUT Goof Again: Oopzie! UFT and NYSUT Goof AgainEducation/ legal expert Campbell Brown is at it again, and this week, rather than simply labeling teachers a bunch of shiftless perverts via stereotype, she's going after teacher tenure for all of us. She won't tell us where her money comes from, but I'm pretty sure it comes from our good pals in Reformyville.Do you kn
4LAKids - some of the news that doesn't fit 6-24-14
4LAKids - some of the news that doesn't fit: Urgent Action Alert: THE LAUSD BOARD OF ED NEEDS TO HEAR YOUR SUPPORT FOR ARTS+MUSIC ED BY 3PM TUESDAY!Ask your Board of Education representative to hold back his or her vote on the budget until LAUSD can ensure every student will have access to a complete education that includes the arts. by e-mail from Arts for LA: June 23, 2014 Dear 4LAKids Reader: I
6-24-14 Wait What? - Jonathan Pelto: Gubernatorial Candidate and A Really Nice Guy
Wait What?: Wait What? No Tenure For Malloy (by Martin Walsh)As a public school teacher and lifelong Democrat, I would like to extend a grateful thank-you to Jonathan Pelto and Ebony Murphy for stepping forward to provide a credible alternative to the present administration which has waged an all out assault on public schools and public education [June 6, Connecticut, "Pelto Starts Collecting
A Political Lesson About Issue Advocacy | Truth in American Education
A Political Lesson About Issue Advocacy | Truth in American Education: A Political Lesson About Issue AdvocacyFiled in Common Core State Standards by Shane Vander Hart on June 24, 2014 • 0 CommentsPhoto credit: Molly Theobald (CC by 2.0)I wanted to highlight an article in Breitbartby Mike Flynn the other day that I intentionally didn’t share over on Truth in American Education’s social media.  It
Shanker Blog » What Kindergartners Might Teach Us About Test-Based Accountability
Shanker Blog » What Kindergartners Might Teach Us About Test-Based Accountability: What Kindergartners Might Teach Us About Test-Based AccountabilityPosted by Matthew Di Carlo on June 24, 2014There is an ongoing debate about widespread administration of standardized tests to kindergartners. This is of course a serious decision. My personal opinion about whether this is a good idea depends on sever
6-24-14 Seattle Schools Community Forum Week
Seattle Schools Community Forum: Example of how SPS Staff Can't Get it RightTomorrow is the public hearing on the budget.  This is a state-mandated requirement.  There are rules about it.But I noticed that the SPS website - the home page, the Board's home page, the Calendar page - none of them explained how to give input (other than showing up and THEN finding out). No info on length of time at th
6-24-14 Answer Sheet
Answer Sheet: Better ways to use millions of dollars now spent on testingHundreds of millions of dollars are spent by states and school districts on standardized tests every year, money that could be used for purposes far more helpful in improving student achievement. What are those purposes? Here are some suggestions, from Jim Arnold and Peter Smagorinsky. Jim Arnold recently retired from the sup
Simple truth over Talking points | Connected Principals
Simple truth over Talking points | Connected Principals: Simple truth over Talking pointsby John Marschhausen • June 24, 2014 • 0 CommentsJust last week I was standing at the grocery, buying eggs, and checking to make sure none of the eggs were broken. While concluding I did in fact have a dozen eggs ready for consumption, a very nice community member, the father of a student in our district, intr
Moshe Adler on Chetty et al. |
Moshe Adler on Chetty et al. |: Moshe Adler on Chetty et al. Recall the study at focus of now many posts on this blog? Written by Raj Chetty and two of his colleagues at Harvard, cited first in President Obama’ 2012 State of the Union address when Obama said, “We know a good teacher can increase the lifetime income of a classroom by over $250,000,” and more recently the focus of much attention whe
LISTEN TO DIANE RAVITCH 6-24-14 Diane Ravitch's blog | A site to discuss better education for all
Diane Ravitch's blog | A site to discuss better education for all: Former Obama Spokesmen Join Attack on Teacher Tenure and SeniorityStephanie Simon reports at politico.com that former high-level Obama advisors will help the fight against teacher unions and due process rights. Campbell Brown, a former CNN anchor who is highly antagonistic to teachers’ unions, is creating an organization to pursue
Geaux Teacher!: Pulling Back the Curtain of the Louisiana Charter School Experiment
Geaux Teacher!: Pulling Back the Curtain of the Louisiana Charter School Experiment: Pulling Back the Curtain of the Louisiana Charter School ExperimentThis post is reblogged from The New Orleans Independent Media..  It is a must read.  The writer is anonymous (includes his/her email for contact) but because of the citations supporting the piece, I have chosen to publish it here.  My information,
6-24-14 Perdido Street School
Perdido Street School: Chelsea Clinton Is As Full Of Shit As Her ParentsFrom The Daily News:Hillary Clinton insists she isn’t “well-off” and now daughter Chelsea, according to a recent interview, claims she couldn't care less about money.“I was curious if I could care about (money) on some fundamental level, and I couldn’t,” she told Fast Company in an interview that ran in the magazine's May edit
Superintendent: Pa. not providing Philly kids a 'thorough and efficient' education | Philadelphia Public School Notebook
Superintendent: Pa. not providing Philly kids a 'thorough and efficient' education | Philadelphia Public School Notebook: Superintendent: Pa. not providing Philly kids a 'thorough and efficient' educationBy Kevin McCorry for NewsWorks on Jun 24, 2014 09:39 AMShare on emailMore Sharing ServicesCOMMENTS (5)PRINTPhoto: WHYYHas Pennsylvania been coming through on its constitutional requirement to prov
The What & Why of Backchanneling | My Island View
The What & Why of Backchanneling | My Island View: The What & Why of BackchannelingJune 24, 2014 by Tom Whitby @tomwhitbyA few years back I spoke at a conference and experienced first hand what a backchannel was. Twitter is probably the best tool to do it. I did write a post on that experience back in November of 2009 and later reposted on my blog,Twitter’s Effect on Presentations and Pres
Mike Klonsky's SmallTalk Blog: Duncan's disaster, Mississippi churns
Mike Klonsky's SmallTalk Blog: Duncan's disaster, Mississippi churns: Duncan's disaster, Mississippi churnsThe Race To The Top is stalling out over testing and evaluation. Common Core roll-out has been an abysmal failure. High stakes testing data is invalid, unreliable and running too late to be used in mandated evaluations. Several states, including RTTT winners, are threatening to pull back or p